Connecting, Gee, Bain, and Haas

Due: November 6

Time on Task: Two hours

Revisit Gee and Bain for this assignment.

Your Task

  1. Haas uses the language of literacy and of discourse. Gee also uses those terms, adding a more specific concept that he calls Discourse. Put some of Gee’s text alongside Haas’ text on discourse to explore the relationship. Where does Haas’ project fit in relation to Gee’s idea of Discourse?
  2. For each of Haas’ four explanations for Eliza’s growth as a reader of biology, consider how either  Gee or Bain (or even Nathan) might see it. (Use what makes sense to you.) Be sure to provide textual support.
  3. Find time before next Tuesday to read the middle (empirical) section of Haas’ text. It is a rich resource of examples and evidence that helps shed light on her concepts and conclusions.

13 thoughts on “Connecting, Gee, Bain, and Haas”

  1. Joonho Han
    Professor Cripps
    English 110-S
    Nov 5 2014

    Connecting, Gee, Bain, and Haas

    1. Haas first mentions discourse when she says “… as part of their disciplinary education, is this rhetorical, contingent nature of written scientific discourse”(45). I believe that Haas’ meaning of discourse is not that far from Gee’s theory of Discourse. While Gee says that Discourse is “ways of being in the world, they are forms of life which integrate words, acts, values, beliefs, attitudes, and social identities as well as gestures, glances, body positions, and clothes”(6), Haas’ idea seems to take off from Gee’s. She does by having discourse be apart of education and in this case science. She is talking about how Eliza uses the discourse of Biology to make a connection. Haas’ project or Eliza fits in to Gee’s idea of Discourse when Eliza goes from saying that she is studying science to being in the sciences and eventually saying that she is a scientist. This is Gee’s idea of mastering and becoming part of a Discourse.

    2. When Haas talks about Eliza’s growth as a reader of Biology, she is making a connection with Gee’s theory of mastering a Discourse. Gee says “ Discourses are not mastered by overt instruction but by enculturation (“apprenticeship”) into social practices through scaffolded and supported interaction with people who have already mastered the Discourse”(7). Gee would see Eliza as someone who was immersed into the Discourse of Biology and eventually someone who became a master.

  2. 1.For Haas, the words Discourse and literacy serve a similar meaning to Gee’s thoughts on this topic. Haas explains discourse as completely understanding her disciplinary field of biology and be able to obtain knowledge to go through with this field. Gee believes that “Discourses are ways of being in the world; they are forms of life which integrate words, acts, values, beliefs attitudes, and social identities as well as gestures, glances, body positions,and clothes” (Gee, 6-7). Both of these ideas relate because they both talk about being apart of something and what it takes to do that

    2. In the reading the first section Increased Domain Kingdom was introduced and explained to the reader as “a strong knowledge explanation for Eliza’s development would maintain that her increased facility with the terms and concepts of biology…led to her increased rhetorical sophistication” (Haas, 74). Basically Haas is explaining how one can increase their knowledge throughout time and development. This is kind of related to Bain’s ideas on how college can shape someone. From freshman year to senior year and how you grow and learn new things. Her second section was about instructional support, which talked about how different types of things such as a variety of teacher, texts and classes can help you better understand something. This can be related to Nathan’s thoughts about how time management and making a perfect schedule can help you be successful in college and better understand the Discourse. Another topic in her article she mentions was about natural development. This is mainly about how an individual grows in rhetorical sophistication. They end up looking at things differently once they have developed and matured. This can relate to bain when he talks about changing your perspective on how you learn something. It helps you understand and overtime you look at it differently. The last section was Mentoring in sociocultural settings. Haas explains this as as experiences and understanding through hands on approaches. Bain is the most relatable to this section because he mentions how if you put yourself in a different environment forces you to learn new things because you are uncomfortable.

  3. 1. Haas talks about discourses as “scientific activity [or] conversations and lab notes as well as conference presentations and formal articles” related to science (44). Haas specifically talks about a kind of discourse called scientific discourse which refers to the various scientific studies and readings in biology. In contrast, Gee only uses the general label of Discourse to describe a combination of “saying, doing valuing, and believing” (Gee 6). Haas views scientific discourse as a “cognizance of the contexts” that is factual and serves a purpose (45). She utilizes the term scientific literacy as part of the Discourse where students master the scientific facts and concepts. This idea relates to Gees concept of mastering a Discourse in order to be fully ‘in’ the Discourse, one must acquire mastery, such as in a secondary Discourse. Haas also introduces the concept of ‘metaunderstanding’ and how “in order to understand, use, and judge scientific content, students need a metaunderstanding of the motives of science and scientists and the history of scientific concepts” (45). This means that Haas wants students to gain an extensive knowledge and understanding of science by learning the motives behind all they learn in biology class. Gee also talks about this type of learning to gain extra knowledge by referring to ‘metaknowledge’ and how students gain extensive knowledge beyond their field of study to “manipulate, anlayze, and resist while advancing” (13). Metaknowledge is like metaunderstanding in that students gain new and useful information that can be applied to their discourse, which in Haas’ case is science. As a whole, Haas’ project serves as an example of Discourse for Gee in that biology is a type of scientific discourse that requires apprenticeship for mastery.

    2. For Haas’ first explanation of increased growth, increased domain knowledge, Bain would see this as an increase in terms for the spock brain. The spock brain acts like a students’ mindful brain and it conducts the serious thought processes for humans. The domain leads to an “increased facility with the terms and concepts of biology” which is why students learn more vocabulary words to store in their spock brain (75). Instructional support refers to the students being exposed to multiple classes and assignments, with the various teachers of each class. Gee could call this a gain in metaknowledge since students are gaining new information by reading biology texts ranging from research reports to published articles. For the natural development explanation, this connects to Nathan’s idea of the senior profile where she concludes by showing how seniors have developed knowledge in professors, attendance, and scheduling. In the same way, Eliza has naturally gained experience over the years where she “later exhibited characteristics of the procedural knower as a senior” (76). This means that Eliza developed new methods of thinking and learning through her experience in the discourse from freshman to senior year. Lastly, the concept of mentoring in a sociocultural setting relates to Gee’s concept of apprenticeship in that Eliza gains hands-on lab experience for biology in college which is a form of apprenticeship. Being apprenticed is an important way to enter a discourse which Eliza illustrates by gaining experience in lab work with professors.

  4. Jeremy Longchamp

    11/5/14

    ENG 110S

    Thoughts on Connecting Gee Bain and Haas

    1. Gee and Haas both use the word “Discourse.” Gee defines Discourse (with a capital D) as “saying(writing)-doing-being-valuing-believing combinations…’discourse’ with a little ‘d,’ to me, means connected stretches of language that make sense (6). Haas uses discourse to mean written work. She states, “One of the things students of science must become privy to, as part of their disciplinary education, is this rhetorical, contingent nature of written scientific discourse” (45). They both use the word discourse to mean similar things, but at the same time, they have slightly different meanings. For Gee, a Discourse is everything that has to do with a particular topic, while Haas limits it to writing. Haas projects fits into Gee’s definition of Discourse, because part of mastering the biology Discourse is shifting from thinking texts are autonomous, to thinking texts are rhetorical. This shift must be mastered before mastery of the Biology Discourse can be achieved. Also, Haas’ conclusion about growing and how the shift is made is related to Gee’s idea of Discourse. Part of mastering the college Discourse is growing during college and these are four ways that students grow.

    2. Haas indicates that one of the ways that Eliza made the switch from an autonomous reader to a rhetorical reader was through “increased domain knowledge” (74). Haas states “her increased facility with the terms and concepts of biology led to her increased rhetorical sophistication” (74). Basically, by being in the culture of Biology, she was able to learn more about the field and jargon and was therefore able to understand more. Gee would look at this as her being enculturated into the Discourse. Gee states “Discourses are not mastered by overt instruction… but by enculturation into social practices through scaffolded and supported interaction with people who have already mastered the Discourse” (7). Eliza is learning how to master the Biology Discourse by people who have already mastered it (Her professors). Haas indicates that another way Eliza made the switch from autonomous reading to rhetorical reading was through “natural development” (75). Haas states that by Eliza’s senior year she, “began to see that authors had various positions on values… and later, that different biologists had different views of nature” (Haas 76). Eliza shifted her paradigms and changed how she thought. What Eliza is experiencing is something that Bain would refer to as an “expectation failure” or, when “the brain expects a certain outcome, yet something else happens” (68). Eliza expected all biologists to have the same view of nature, because that what she had been taught in high school, but it turns out they do not. A third way that Haas indicates how Eliza grows through the four years is through “Mentoring in Sociocultural Settings” (77). Haas states, “The context of Eliza’s work experience directly supported her education in biology” (77). This means that through her work experience she acquired a mentor, who showed her the way of how things should be done, such as the “Savvy Senior” in Nathans’ text. The last way that Eliza grew was through “instructional support” (75). This just means that she took what she knew from other classes and applied it to biology. Gee would look at this as her having metaknowledge, or “seeing how the Discourses you have already got relate to those you are attempting to acquire” (13). She already mastered the English Discourse, and applied it to her Biology Discourse.

  5. 1. Haas and Gee both use the word discourse; however, Gee capitalizes it giving it a slightly different meaning.When Hass uses the word discourse she is describing a certain field. She talks about the scientific discourse and how one can become successful in it by increasing domain knowledge, having instructional support, “natural development” and mentoring in a sociocultural setting. Haas idea of discourse is not as specific as Gee’s. Gee defines a Discourse as “a sort of ‘identity kit’ which comes complete with the appropriate costume and instructions on how to act, talk, and often write so as to take on a particular role that others will recognize” (7). His idea of a Discourse is broader than Haas because hers only relates to how to get the correct education needed for a certain field such as biology. Haas’ discourse could be part of Gee’s larger view of Discourses because Gee is more general. Haas also just focuses on the language and knowledge part of becoming a biologist while Gee believes there are many other aspects that allow someone to be successful in their specific field.

    2. Haas provides us with four explanations for Eliza’s growth as a reader in biology. The first one is increased domain knowledge. Haas believes that Eliza “increased facility with the terms and concepts of biology” and this “led to her increased rhetorical sophistication” (74). Gee would consider this to be the “saying (writing)” of the Discourse of a biology student (6). The second explanation Haas gives is instructional support which relates to “[exposure] to different kinds of classes and assignment” (75). Over the years Eliza went to new classes that had different teachers and she was expected to do things in different ways because the tests and homework were not the same for all the classes. Each teacher expected something which “required different strategies, goals, and views of discourse from her” (75). Bain would see this as Eliza being mindful because she had to change the way she did certain things to make sure she was successful in each and every class. People like Eliza who are mindful “constantly pay attention to different contexts and perspectives, and they live in the moment” (Bain 74). Another explanation Haas suggests is “natural” development which relates to Eliza becoming more rhetorically sophisticated as she became older and had more experience in college. Eliza can be compared to Nathan’s savy senior who has a greater understanding of how to be successful in college and life after their journey through college. The final reason for Eliza’s success that Haas gives us is mentoring in a sociocultural setting. She says, “Eliza’s experiences in the real world setting of a lab, where students, professors, and other technicians worked together in the conduct of research, probably taught her a great deal about the actual, contingent nature of much scientific activity” (78). By having the real experience of being in a lab with people in the same field Eliza became more successful as a biologist and Gee would call this apprenticeship. Gee also believes that people are successful in their Discourse by “enculturation (“appenticeship”) into social practices through scaffolded and supported interactions with people who have already mastered the Discourse” (7).

  6. Jessica Mikaelian
    11/5/14
    1. Haas refers to the term discourse in her text. This idea of discourse in Haas’s text is in some ways similar to Gee, however they also differ greatly. In Gee’s text he defines Discourse (notice the capital letter D) as “saying(writing)-doing-being-valuing-believing combination” (6) Gee’s definition of Discourse is the way that one act and is in a general sense. In this way Gee and Haas differ. Haas says “… as part of their disciplinary education, is this rhetorical, contingent nature of written scientific discourse”(45). In this way her meaning of discourse refers more to a scientific field rather than a way of living. However in
    the same way they are also similar because they both require you to say the write things at the right time and in the right way.

    2.When Haas explains Eliza’s growth as a reader she offers four options. These options all enforce the way that Gee says one must enter a Discourse. Gee says “ Discourses are not mastered by overt instruction but by enculturation (“apprenticeship”)(7). This is exactly what is happening in all of the explanation that Haas offers, especially the last one: mentoring in a sociocultural setting. This explanation offers that Eliza uses sources outside of her schooling (internships etc.) to become more in the discourse of biology, which I think is exactly what Gee means when he says ‘apprenticeship’.

  7. Dalani Roy
    11/5/14

    1.) Haas uses the word discourse in her text just like Gee did in his piece about linguistics but they have separate meanings. In Gee’s paper “Discourse” is capitalized and when he refers to this term, he means it as a “sort of ‘identity kit’ which comes complete with the appropriate costume and instructions on how to act, talk, and often write, so as to take on a particular role that others with recognize” (7). The term on Haas’ paper means something different. Discourse on her paper is not capitalized like it is in Gee’s. I understand Haas in the way that discourse means completely understanding something like the field of biology which is referenced a great deal in her paper due to the subject Eliza. I think that Haas’ idea of a discourse is similar to Gee’s meaning in the sense that both help you gain understanding and knowledge of a certain topic.

    2.) Haas explains four different ways that Eliza grew as a reader. The first was increased domain knowledge which meant that Eliza’s “development would maintain that her increased facility with the terms and concepts of biology… led to her increased rhetorical sophistication” (74). I think that Gee would describe this is the “saying” part of the individual (6) because Eliza learned many more terms and familiarized herself with the vocal that was being used in her field of biology. The second way was instructional support. As “Eliza’s education proceeded, she was exposed to different kinds of classes and assignments… [the support provided] was responsible for Eliza’s rhetorical development” (Haas 75). This would relate to Gee’s ideas about immersing yourself to understand the Discourse: “Discourses are not mastered by overt instruction… but by enculturation (‘apprenticeship’)” (Gee 7). The third way that Eliza grew was “natural” development meaning that “her [Eliza’s] growth in rhetorical sophistication echoes other studies of college-age adults” (Haas 75). As a brief explanation, Eliza grew naturally, and adapted to what was around her. This is where I would connect Nathan’s idea of a savvy senior and how they’ve learned to adapt to new methods. “As seniors, they will ask more questions in class… Despite the escalating sophistication and relevance of upper-level and major courses, they will not increase the number of study or preparation hours they devote to them” (Nathan 130). Eliza learned like the seniors at AnyU that you can still manage your time and begin to delve further into readings without spending too much time on them. The last way that Eliza grew was mentoring in a sociocultural setting which meant that her work that she did outside of school-but pertaining to her field-helped her grow as an individual. This would relate best again to Gee’s idea about apprenticeship. Eliza worked under someone who was already mastered in a Discourse of biology in the lab.

  8. 1) Haas and Gee both use the term Discourses. Haas says, “One of the things students of science must become privy to, as part of their disciplinary education, is this rhetorical, contingent nature of written scientist discourse” (45). Haas basically uses Discourse when talking about Eliza and biology. She uses Discourse to fully understand the ways of biology. Now Gee says Discourses are a combination of, “saying (writing)-doing-being-valuing-believing combinations. These combinations I call ‘Discourses,’ with a capital D” (6). Gee and Haas both use the word Discourse as the mastery of what a person is trying to accomplish.

    2) One of the four explanations for Eliza’s growth as a reader of biology is mentoring in a sociocultural setting. Haas explains how Eliza worked as an assistant in a lab with one of her professors. Haas calls this, “cognitive apprenticeship” (77). Gee uses the word apprenticeship in a similar manner. He states, “…and hardly anyone ever fluently acquired a second language sitting in a classroom), but by enculturation (“apprenticeship”) into social practices through scaffolded and supported interaction with people who have already mastered the Discourse” (7). Gee uses the word apprenticeship when relating to Discourses. To master a Discourse you must immerse yourself with others already in that Discourse. This relates to what Eliza did in her job as an assistant. Instructional support also closely relates to apprenticeship. When Eliza was given extra support she understood texts better, and the people helping Eliza already new the text thus already in the Discourse.

  9. 1.
    Haas and Gee both use “discourse” in some way shape or form with Gee writing it with a capital “D”. Despite the shared name, they are different concepts. Gee defines it as a “way of being in the world” (3) while standard discourse is ” connected segments of language that make sense” (Gee 3). Haas however describes a situation where in the field of Biology, “scientists adjust the strength of there claims depending on audience” (44) as being part of the discourse of biology. In that instance, Haas’ definition of discourse matched Gee’s as the described the scientific “way of being in the world”.

    2. As Eliza gains a better knowledge about reading biology, she is becoming more literate in what Gee would describe as the “biology discourse”. This is because she is absorbing the knowledge necessary to become what Gee would describe as “fluent” in the field, and therefore discourse, of biology. Gee would see Eliza as having used mushfake to gain basic knowledge before eventually mastering the discourse and no longer as a “pretender”.

  10. Molly Mohan
    Eng 110-S

    1. The subject of discourses seems to be the whole idea behind Gee and a major part of Haas as well. Haas explains that “One of the things students of science must become privy to, as part of their disciplinary education, is this rhetorical, contingent nature of written scientific discourse” (45) Haas is basically saying that one must look at different texts with an open mind. Being able to read into depth and examine all the connections between readings will you propel you into the discourse. Basically this connects to Gee’s saying and doing concept of a discourse because you must understand the correct way to read it.

    2. Haas uses four concepts to explain Eliza’s growth and learning through the years. Haas’ first point was increased domain knowledge, “a strong knowledge explanation for Eliza’s development would maintain that her increased facility with the terms and concepts of biology…led her increased rhetorical sophistication” (74). This would connect to Gee’s idea of saying and writing correctly. This ties into her natural development, overtime she changed her way of thinking and opened up her mind to new concepts. A lot of Bain’s text discusses the ways one can go about thinking things. Instructional support and mentoring in a sociocultural setting are the other two concepts that are important to Eliza’s growth. It was very important that Eliza had differently structured classes with teachers that had different methods of teaching because this gave her many ways to view topics. The personal experience Eliza had in her lab assisting gave her a very big leap into her discourse. These concepts tie into Gee’s concepts of needing the social interaction to master a discourse. “Discourses are not mastered by overt instruction…but by enculturation…into social practices through scaffolded and supported interaction with people who have already mastered the Discourse” (Gee 7). Eliza needed the interaction with experienced members of the discourse to be able to get a feel on how the real discourse worked and how to act, talk, and do it correctly.

  11. 1 Gee defines Discourse as the “saying, doing, valuing, and believing” combinations that considers you included in a skill, hobby, or profession. Gee’s idea of Discourse is synonymous with that of Haas idea of being able to read certain texts, in particular biology. Haas project that involves watching a student progress through college is much like Gee’s idea of enculturation into social practices in the way that she learns over her college career.

    2 Increased domain knowledge is exactly like Gee’s idea of apprenticeship because as one progresses through their college career or their “apprenticeship” they learn as they go until finally at the end of their education they can be considered part of the Discourse. Instructional support is much like Bain’s idea of how if we train our brains to think differently and through different viewpoints we can gain more knowledge. Natural development is defined by Haas as Eliza’s way of learning throughout college through her actual experiences. This is most closely related to Nathan’s idea of the classic college student. Mentoring in socioculture settings is much like the specific way in which a student learns hands on in Gee’s idea of apprenticeships through “scaffolded interactions with people who have already mastered the Discourse” (Gee 7).

  12. 1. Haas talks about discourse in a sense that is close to Gee’s theory of Discourse. Gee talks about it being “ways of being in the world, they are forms of life which integrate words, acts, values, beliefs, attitudes, and social identities as well as gestures, glances, body positions, and clothes”(6) and Haas is close to that. Hass mentions the way that Eliza transitioned from studying science to being in the sciences. This is like being in the Discourse of science.
    2. Haas talks about four options as explanations for Eliza growth. It connects with Gees theory of mastering discourses. As she learns and grows more into her field she is becoming closer to being a master and will no longer been seen as a “pretender” as Gee would say. Now that she is in the sciences rather than studying them she has mastered the discourse of biology.

  13. Christopher LeTourneau
    11/4/14
    ENG 110 S

    1. As we all noticed in our new reading, Haas’ was in great similarity to Gee in the terms they both used. Yes, you can say that they didn’t exactly mean the same thing technically but they were obviously similar in the means of what they were getting at and talking about. Haas for example used her college student as a test subject in the means of her transitioning into college and her progression through college and the different things that she learned. Mainly she master skills and evolved them into better understanding on how to comprehend with reading and writing education works of english literature and also the literate form of biology. Gee meant this same sort of progression through the a Discourse as to mastering it and becoming one who is worthy of being apart of the Discourse. This related to Haas in the sense that Haas was showing how her college student Eliza was further mastering her ability to be known as a master in a certain discourse through the explanation of the terms rhetorical and autonomous reading and writing. Progression through autonomous reading into rhetorical reading was Haas’ key point into mastering said discourse of biology which relates to Gee’s explanation of a Discourse.

    2. For the first growth Haas discussed the Increased Domain Knowledge which was the increased facility with terms and concepts of learning. Basically being exposed to terms and concepts that a true seasoned master of a discourse would understand. I can relate this to Bain in the sense that Bain believed that his explanation that you must ‘know’ how your brain works in order to use it correctly. Haas uses this domain knowledge as something similar where she wanted you to ‘know’ the terms and concepts in order to use them to your advantage in the discourse you’re trying to be apart of. The second explanation was Instructional Support, which means being exposed to different professors and taking a wide range of classes and assignments (texts). I can related this to Nathan in the sense that Nathan had the idea that being around people that were well seasoned would help you further expand yourself in the discourse you’re trying to get into so taking a wide range of classes or taking an internship would further enhance the chances of succeeding in the discourse you’re trying to get into. The third explanation was Natural Development, which is the ‘growth’ of sophistication. Where this is like your maturity for when reading and writing was brought on by your growth in college from your first year to your senior year. I can relate this to Gee by the sense that he had the concepts of being ‘born’ (for a lack of better words) into a discourse. That some things just come with time and maturity. The last explanation that Haas discussed was the Mentoring in Sociocultural Settings, which was like the hands on experience of the discourse, seeing the biology would better your understanding for the science. I don’t think I can relate this to Gee, Bain, or even Nathan like we were assigned to so I’ll relate it to Amy Cuddy. Cuddy’s beliefs were that you can fake it till you make it, yet she also talked about the physical aspect of becoming a seasoned master in a ‘discourse’ (she didn’t use the term discourse). She would talk about dominant and non dominant power positions and how they would impact how you would act and better yourself to feel more comfortable in the discourse, like Haas’ beliefs of hands on experience. Eliza would feel comfortable with the physical accept of her learning just like Cuddy would explain that the power positions would make you more confident in believing you’re in that discourse until you are.

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